A true data geek, Mike founded Altos Research in 2006 to bring data and insight on the U.S. housing market to those who need it most. The company now serves the largest Wall Street investment firms, banks, and tens of thousands of real estate professionals around the country.
In this episode of the Top of Mind podcast, Mike Simonsen sits down with Tom Ferry, the real estate industry’s #1 coach and trainer, to talk about how to achieve greatness and fulfill your potential as a real estate professional. Tom shares some of the secrets of the best-performing agents in the country, what it takes to become a true leader in the industry, what it means to be a local expert, and more.
About Tom Ferry
Tom Ferry is ranked the #1 Real Estate Educator by Swanepoel Power 200 and the Best-Selling Author of Life! By Design and Mindset, Model and Marketing!
As Founder and CEO of Ferry International, the real estate industry’s leading coaching and training company, Tom’s ever-growing influence impacts professionals in a wide variety of ways — including rigorous accountability coaching, the popular #TomFerryShow delivering free, fresh, and relevant real estate tips weekly, highly engaging training events, two best-selling books, and his legendary keynote speeches.
Tom has more than 30,000 hours of coaching experience and works daily to help agents and brokers grow a prosperous business while simultaneously balancing — and loving — their personal lives.
He is also a highly sought-after and renowned speaker whose charisma and personality have captivated audiences around the world. Tom’s love and passion for life are fueled by a commitment to discipline and holding professionals accountable to fulfill their greatness.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:
- How to talk to buyers and sellers right now
- How the great agents and teams “help clients at scale”
- Innovative strategies for winning listings in this crazy market
- Why a potential recession may not be as difficult for homeowners as expected
- The future impact of demographic and homebuilding trends
- Why we may actually be in a buyers’ market rather than a sellers’ market
Resources mentioned in this episode:
- Tom Ferry on LinkedIn
- Ferry International
- “Now is the Time to Buy! Unpacking the Market with Ivy Zelman” on The Tom Ferry Podcast Experience
- Mike Simonsen on LinkedIn
- Altos Research
Brought to you by...
This episode is brought to you by Altos Research. Altos is the #1 market data company for realtors, title, and escrow.
Each week, Altos Research tracks every home for sale in the country, all the pricing, and all the changes in pricing, and synthesizes those analytics to make them available before becoming visible through traditional channels.
Altos Research is a full-featured lead conversion engine. Our system uses real-time market reports to attract and engage prospective buyers and sellers. Designed to work with minimal setup, Altos helps you move leads through the funnel automatically, alerting you when they're ready to take action.
Schedule a demo to see Altos in action. You can also get a copy of our free eBook: How To Use Market Data to Build Your Real Estate Business.
Welcome to Top of Mind The show where we talk to real estate industry insiders and experts about the biggest trends impacting the market today. Enjoy the show.
Mike Simonsen 0:13
Mike Simonsen here. Thanks for joining me today. Welcome to the Top of Mind podcast. This is where I talk to the smartest leaders, thinkers and doers in the real estate industry. Each week, altos research tracks every home for sale in the country. All we analyse all the pricing and supply and demand and we make all that information available to you before you see it in the traditional data channels. For a couple of years now, we've been sharing the latest market data every week in our in our weekly YouTube video series. With our new Top of Mind podcast, we're looking to add context to the discussion about what's happening in the market from the leaders in the industry. So people desperately need to know what's happening in the housing market right now. It's been so hot, so competitive, and now suddenly the landscape is changing. When people ask me, Mike, can I get the data from my local market? The answer is yes, visit altosresearch.com for free book a free consultation on how you can get the local market data for your business to your clients today. And the crazy market is Top of Mind with my guest today. Not just the market but but how we as professionals communicate to those who need to know. So without further ado, I am thrilled to introduce my guest today, Tom Ferry. Tom is the Founder CEO of Ferry International, the real estate industry's leading coaching and training company Tom's genius is in his ability to coach the best agents and businesses in the real estate industry to achieve greatness. Tom is a best selling author and the number one ranked real estate industry educator by swappable power 200. He's also a renowned speaker, his charisma and personality captivate audiences around the world. I've seen him it's terrific. The reason we wanted to have Tom on the podcast is because he works with the biggest agents and brokers in the world. He helps them build their business and deliver outstanding results to their clients. So he's at the frontlines of where the professionals meet the consumers. Since this podcast is all about delivering the context of the market. I can't wait to hear Tom's perspective. Okay, ladies and gentlemen, Tom Ferry and I am thrilled to announce my guest, Tom Ferry, Tom, welcome to the Top of Mind podcast.
Tom Ferry 3:01
Hey, Mike, thanks for having me, man. Like we're just talking off the off camera. It's been a long time. So it's really good to see you. And I can't wait to be at an event with you soon.
Mike Simonsen 3:08
Yes, I'm looking forward to it. We should go. I'll come by some of the Tom Ferry events. So absolutely. So let's let's dive right in for our listeners and readers don't know who Tom Ferry is. And about Ferry International. Once you give us a background, you know about the company and your work?
Tom Ferry 3:26
Yeah, so So the joke is some people were raised on milk and cookies are where I was from Southern California surf and skate. I was raised on residential real estate and sales, training, motivation, business coaching from my father and other mentors. So basically, for the last 27 years, I've been a business coach. I've been a strategist for CEOs of companies, Fin tech companies, real estate companies, top producing teams, brand new agents, everything under the sun. And today is an organisation with about 207 coaches. And now I think nine countries, we work with an enormous cohort of high producing CEOs, Team marriages, teams, and agents that are kind of all committed to the same thing, regardless of right now. And you can speak more to this Mike and I actually want to ask you about it. One could argue this is one of the hardest real estate markets we've been in since 2009. And, and our commitment as a community is to continue to persevere and innovate and serve at the highest level. And that's really what I'm all about.
Mike Simonsen 4:26
You do talk a lot. I follow your love, love your work on Twitter and how it's universally motivating. Not just about the real estate industry. Right. Right. That's, that's great. Let's so let's jump right in about the market. You know, as you said, it's hard. It's hard for buyers. Tell me about your take on it. What what are what do you see and what do you how do you talk to agents about talking to consumers?
Tom Ferry 4:56
So I think the industry is is trifurcated, you will appreciate this, there's a third of the agents that aren't doing anything, and they're probably not going to do anything. They're licensed, but they're not really active, you got a third of the agents that are out there in the marketplace that are really struggling to find business. And then you have the top 1/3. If you're really paying attention to the data, you and I both notes, about 400,000, residential real estate agents that control about 73.5% of all the volume and tracks and transactions. And that group has a different set of struggles, they're struggling with time, they've got so much demand gen so much inbound from good branding and good marketing, they built teams, and they're trying to figure out how do they help at scale buyers in this challenging marketplace. So, you know, we're spending a lot of time as everybody else is, whether it is trying to refine a better buyer consultation, to get out of this mindset, which is counter to a lot of the big tech firms and portals that we know about better, like, push a button, let me see a house. Like there are no houses to see in that scenario. today. It is more about really sitting down with a buyer, whether they bought 10 times or their first time, and really through case studies and examples explaining the situation that they're in today. Right? It's not that it's a horrific market, but it's a market that requires speed and differentiation, better agent relationships, cleaner offers less contingencies, all the things that Mike you know, and I know, but sometimes we need to grab the agents by the shoulders, and remind them that, you know, if you're running a play, that's causing you to lose, you might want to run a different play. And and the same thing applies to consumer. Sometimes we need to grab the buyer by the shoulders after they've written two or three or four offers and said, you know, but my you know, my dad told me I should get a deal. Right? Well, okay, your dad bought a home in 1984. Right here in 2020. There the deal is, anything you buy 30 days later, it's worth more money. Congratulations. So trying to help people navigate that, if that makes sense.
Mike Simonsen 7:08
Yeah, for sure. And then what do you think about like right now, all of a sudden, so that's, that has been less story last couple of years, like you're buying, it's going up? You can overbid because, you know, actually, the mortgage payment isn't that much with the rate solo. But those dynamics are kind of changing right now. And so now that consumers have a whole different set of fears, how does that story change? When they're like, you know, what if rates go up, and I wait, and it gets more expensive, but what if I get more opportunity? Or? What do we like everybody's always afraid.
Tom Ferry 7:42
I mean, it's so hard to unpack, as you and I both know, there's, there's I mean, you've got, you've got inflation, you've got Russia, Ukraine, you've got global uncertainty, when it comes to finance, you got the entire FinTech world being disrupted throughout the UK. You know, like, there's so many things at play right now. But I go back, I mean, listen, you know, I have respected you for a long time. And the data that you put out in the marketplace, one of the data points I'm paying attention to is the millennial cohort and the size and strength of that group, compared to say, the boomers, which, you know, if you if you looked at it on a graph, the boomers are going this way, right at 75. They're starting to pass off, you know, pass on like, right at 76. So not right away. But that millennial group, like, I've got a couple them right here inside my office, they all want to buy houses, right? And the demand of that group and the opportunity of that group for us over the next seven to 10 years. Makes it hard for me to say anything other than housing is going to be good. Right? Could interest rates, you know, go to four or five? No doubt, right? I mean, we saw it in the summer of 2018. Right? That's sort of one could argue Mike almost much needed pause, because the market was that so much velocity? So if they if that happens again? Do you think the world is going to stop buying houses? Do you think people are gonna stop betting on shelter? Do you think they're gonna continue to live in apartments? Or with inflation? Do you think they're gonna buy real estate and have it go up in value and just arbitrage the interest rates? I'm betting on the latter, will it be 6 million houses like last year? Or will it be 5.5 million? Either way? That's a strong economy.
Mike Simonsen 9:20
Yeah, for sure. And it's, it's, I mean, I think the millennials as a fundamental driver of the next few years, it it's sort of it almost can't go away like it's it can maybe almost get stronger as they reach peak earning and buying years. It will be interesting to see when the boomers finally do start to unload some of their properties because they've been hoarding everything right for a long time. Do you see any any of that sign starting to happen?
Tom Ferry 9:52
I mean, not enough to make it a like. So when I'm talking to my clients today, and we're talking about strategies for attracting listings as an example, thinking about the book numbers, you know, I say to them, you know, you should look at any data source you have, where you could pull up, give me every person in their house that has no mortgage that's in their 80s. And the home is two stories. Like, that's just a most likely to sell whether it's right now or sometime in the future, right? If you look at the migration patterns of how money walks, right.com, and it's so obvious, I mean, it's been obvious for 20 years, but now it's so obvious that sand states are ruling the day. So if I was sitting in the Northeast, and I'm marketing people, my message is going to be different. Right? You know, like, it's not like, have you dreamed about your Florida House? But it's like, are you ready for the next winter? Right, so So there are some things we're seeing, but it's not enough. And I think that's the fundamental problem. Most people don't know what to do next. And there's almost too much information in the market for consumers. And not enough people taking the time to sit down one on one and say, Mike, is this your forever home? What do you guys want to accomplish with the next three 5-10 years with your house, like that true consultant who cares about their client and isn't just trying to sink their teeth into a deal, but instead, hey, if I spent all day every day talking to people in my database, talking to potential customers, about what their expectations are, a percentage of them are going to do something? Does that make sense? I just don't think there's enough of that, because you see it, there's just so many people are like, Ah, I'm running fast, I gotta get a deal, right, I gotta get my offer. And as quickly as possible, I gotta, I gotta hit enter in the MLS as fast as possible on this listing is gonna sell in 14 seconds, I've got 65 offers, and we need a break, we need to slow down, we're gonna remember that when the human business, and buying and selling real estate Buying a house is very, it's human at its core. So I'm arguing for that.
Mike Simonsen 11:49
That's great. I love that and the concept of too much information. I see it every day. And, you know, I'm putting out information, everything. And we try to put out information that is valuable and insightful and unique. But I also know that there is, you know, as, for example, right now, it's early April, when we're having this conversation, the the mortgage rates have spiked super high or super high, as fast as they've spiked ever. At the same time, this week, a third of the new listings that hit the market sold in a couple of days, like immediately, a third of them are already gone. They essentially bypass the active market. And so that's not, you know, that's not hasn't slowed down a blink in in this time, but, but it sure feels scary. And there are no shortage of people who are in the camp that it is like, like things are about to change, or I'm going to wait until they do change.
Tom Ferry 12:51
You know, but we've, you know, I mean, you and I both know, fundamentally, the, the core of the concern for the vast majority of people is, are we going back into 2007 8 9 10? Right, like so. So I mean, talking to consumers, talking to friends in my building, talking to clients, like everyone says this, But but but but but and they, they they mask it all with, you know, I read this headline and Bloomberg said this, and you know, this person said that, and I say, can we just go back to? You don't want to experience 7 8 9 10? Again, because that's all we're talking about. And then I walk him back through the numbers, what are we at 39% of all homes in the US today have no mortgage? Is that better or worse than 2006? And they're like, I don't know. And I'm like, You're in housing, you should know that. Right? 130 8 million houses. That's a lot of people that said, I'm just gonna pay this off. And we're not talking about all the hedge funds, because they don't own enough houses to represent 38% of all homes in the US, then when you go through the data, the mortgage data, and I don't want to misquote it, because you know, it changes, you know, every quarter. But I want to say the last time I looked at this, Mike, and if you have the number of please, you know, tell me it was something like less than 7% of all homes in the US. If they put their home on the market today. They'd break even if they sold. And I would even question that, right. Yeah, you're just better every day. Yeah, there's so much equity right out there. We learn the lessons of 7 8 9 10. Right. So if things slow down a tad, and you know, the 10 year continues to climb, which it is, but inflation also continues to climb. The stock market is a question mark for a lot of people. So when the stock market is in question, what's the single greatest asset? Let's buy more houses? And I would argue having bought my first house with an illustrative 11 that whether it's for four and a half or five, that's still cheap.
Mike Simonsen 14:41
Yeah, yeah, I talked about that. I bought my first house. I think it was like seven and a half and I thought it was such a good deal. I locked it in for 30 years. I then bought my second house at six and a half and I thought it was such a good deal. I locked it in for 30 years.
Tom Ferry 14:56
Is it true? And I heard this recently for a friend of mine is in the mortgage space and I didn't I didn't fact check it. Is it true that we're the only country around the world that does 30? Year?
Mike Simonsen 15:05
We’re not probably not the only country some, some actually do 40s. But, but a lot of them are, will do. It's much more common to be on a super variable. But more commonly variable. Yeah, yeah. I know. It's not, you know, Tom, I love you, man. But, but 2.7% Like, I'm not giving you that loan. Me Like, that's such a good deal.
Tom Ferry 15:26
Right. You know, I mean, it. I mean, I think about a couple of the homes or investment properties in like, money has been so cheap, right, which is also why we're dealing with some of the inflation issues, right, so, so I don't see. I don't see us not going into a micro recession. I think we're absolutely going into a micro recession. But you and I both know, if we pay attention, the last, you know, 25 years, we've had six of those 7 8 9 10 was the one that everybody feels the most when they hear the word recession, they're gonna go various doom and gloom. And let's run that as a headline, like Barry says, the world's falling apart. No, no, no, we're gonna go into possibly two quarters where the GDP isn't growing as much, right, where we have double digit, you know, like, or not double digit, but two quarters back to back where we're not growing. And if that happens, you know, I hope it's, I hope it's a call to arms for the vast majority of people that are sitting on the sidelines, to get their ass back to work.
Mike Simonsen 16:22
Yeah. And and that, that one of the, you know, as you point out, we're like, we're so tuned in to the 2007 8 9. That we think about housing and and a recession as correlated downturn, it could be that because of the demographics, and because we've had because of like the equity things equity position, and that we all have really good loans. It could it be that housing is the sector that helps us pull out of a coming recession? Wouldn't that be a surprise?
Tom Ferry 16:55
Well, hello, did we didn't housing do the same thing for COVID? Yeah, during during the pandemic, housing was the great white hope. I mean, it's, you know, it just it flourished during that time, because people finally had options, right? The pent up demand the realization Am I enough in my forever house, would I like a backyard? Do I need more room? Would I like a pool be near a river, whatever it is. So I feel the same way. And a lot of it depends upon the millennials. Right. And I know you know this, and I'm, if you could share some data points. I was with Ivy Zelman recently. And we were talking about the you know, the supply side, that right now we've got more sticks in the ground being built than we had back in 2004 2005 2006. Now, whether that number is 1.5 or 1.6 million, it doesn't matter. Because there's 8 million people that want to buy a house right now. The challenge is Where were those houses be? and are like, you know, these two young rockstars that work with me, are they willing to go 45 minutes outside of town to go buy that really cool pad? Right? Maybe not so much in Dallas, as they both look at me and say Absolutely, no, but you know, in many of the major metros, that's where you have to go. Do you have some insight on that?
Mike Simonsen 18:04
Well, yes. So and we also have interested in talking a little bit about Zelman because Ivy's, she is actually has published some research about how like, the conventional wisdom is that we've been under building, and we don't have enough homes. But she's published some research that says we actually have built enough homes. And so I'm interested in getting your take if you had a chance to talk to her about about that take in particular.
Tom Ferry 18:27
I just published a podcast with her when we do that a couple of weeks ago, but I want to say it was 45 days ago when we did the interview. So now I have a reason to text her Ivy if you’re listening soon. So what So tell me what did she say?
Mike Simonsen 18:42
So she's well, so So yeah, so the the, you know, the conventional wisdom in our, in our data space? Is that that that we we stopped building in 2009. And you know, we'd been building say, a million and a half homes per year. And then we started building 500,000. Yeah. And and so, and then we started getting a little more and it's just this year when we're finally back over that long term average. So if you add them together, it's maybe we we under built 5 million homes over that 10 10 year span. Right. And it makes sense to me. I don't know if it's 5 million or 2 million or 14 or whatever. But it's but it makes sense to me that we we under built. That's only one thing leading into our supply shortage right now. But but but Ivy and and the Zelman team did did some work. And I think it was based on long term demographic trends, Boomer trends as well as and she said, you know, actually, that's probably not true. It's one of the contrarian takes on construction. They'll be really interesting to see how that plays out.
Tom Ferry 19:48
Right? I'll give you another contrarian point of view. I was just thinking about the other day it was with one of my clients, Andy see big shout out to Andy and he was the number one agent in Silicon Valley. He'll probably be named when the real Trends list comes out. he'll be number one or number two he did as a small team $985 million in sales last year. Right. So, so highly productive does a third of all the business in Saratoga, Sunnyvale? So he's on stage with me in January. And I say, Andy, are we in a seller's market or a buyers market? What do you think his answer was?
Mike Simonsen 20:19
Well, if it's contrary and he said, It's, he said, it's a buyer's market.
Tom Ferry 20:22
He said, we're in a buyer's market. And you should have seen 2000 of the most productive agents on the planet go, whoa. And he said, let me explain. If you sold your house in Sunnyvale two years ago, for 2 million bucks, by the time you know, by the time we got to today, it's worth 3 million. You made a mistake. But the buyer on the other hand, that bought it for 2 million picked up a million dollars in equity. So with that put us in a buyers market.
Mike Simonsen 20:48
It's a great opportunity for buyers, right?
Tom Ferry 20:51
It really makes I watch agents squirm, like when I said, because I've been so conditioned to say, seller's market seller's market seller's market, and yet, the president of my company bought a house, you know, 20 minutes here to the Westin in Dallas. And in the 45 day escrow period, from the time he opened the escrow to the time he closed, he picked up a couple $100,000 in equity. That sounds like a buyers market. That's fascinating. And do you see you know, I'm sure you look at the same data I'm looking at. So please tell me the home price appreciation index service that basically says 2022 to 2027. It's a it's it's a nice, you know, the ultimate MBA high end right, on home prices all the way through 27. So, what kind of market are we really in right now? I know, Russia, I know, uncertainty. I know, you know, the midterm elections? I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. But damn, I'm still betting on housing.
Mike Simonsen 21:46
Yeah, that's really cool. Let's talk a little bit about the future. We got a few more minutes. And so talk some of the trends that we've seen are some of the migration trends and some of the remote work trends you move from Southern California to Texas during the pandemic, but
Tom Ferry 22:01
I bought in 2019. Okay, yeah, I was moving long before it just took me a year to you know, get it done, and then finally make the move.
Mike Simonsen 22:08
Okay, so tell me about what you think about the remote work trends. And and like those migration trends? Are they you see him as permanent? Or like, how do they impact, you know, the agents that you and I work with everyday, and then the consumers that they work with?
Tom Ferry 22:23
So, you know, the good news is, like, I'm, I'm gonna make this statement. I am not an expert on this. But we've all been watching this trend, this, this trends been going on for a while now. So it just got put on steroids. During the pandemic. I remember sitting Mike in my office with my executive team, and saying we had we had a little advance notice that Orange County, California where we were was about to shut down. So we, I literally got the team together and said, Go buy 135 laptops, go get everything that we need, we're going remote, and they're like, What do you think like we keep hearing these rumblings of two weeks. Now, I admittedly did not say to my team, you know, if you google how long it takes for a pandemic, then it's not two weeks. It's two years. So I was like, this is going to be the new norm for two years. Let's create some new products with threats and new solutions. This is going to be the environment. Thank God, we've been on Zoom since 2017. Like here we go. Fast forward to today, as we are as we're onboarding, you know, new employees, you know, across the country, the number one question they ask is, do I have to be in the office every day? Like, that's the number one question, right? It's not like, what's the comp like what's packaged? Like, it's just like, you don't want me to go to the office every day, do you which is fascinating, but counter that to a very small sample size of teammates that we've lost in the last five or six months. The number one complaint they have is lack of culture, lack of community, and lack of communication. So you tell me, where's it all play out?
Mike Simonsen 23:51
Yeah, actually, I actually have a hypothesis that a cool office working environment is going to be a recruiting advantage for companies. It's like, you want to work for a company where they hate each other so much. They never want to be at the top. You want to be in the office where it's cool and everything's happening. Right?
Tom Ferry 24:13
My argument similar is like we are a whiteboard. Get together as a group because we're better together than we are individually. We just work better together. Like there's so much power like, hey, Tyrese, let's go for a quick walk real fast. Let's talk about the next show. We're doing it like, like, I got pretty fed up as most of the world did with like, Can I send Mike a slack? Can I get into a zoom calendar with them? It's a 30 minute meeting. By the time we get the meeting. There's no more urgency the problem has already been solved. Why am I now talking to him? I should cancel this meeting. Like that became the norm. Right. So I also think about think about so my older son is graduating from college and and his buddies that entered the workforce in 2021. Like hey, congratulations, you just got a job at Holohan Loki, you're making 100,000 Some bucks. And by the way, you're sitting on a zoom camera all day long. What do you miss? watercooler conversation? You miss hearing? You know, Adam or Martha, who are the best debt restructure deal people on the planet? You don't get any of that stuff unless you're in the office. So I think it's going to be my guess is three days a week is going to become the new norm across the country. Yeah, my hallucination.
Mike Simonsen 25:23
Yeah. And I mean, I think there's probably something like that. And then what does that mean for our industry?
Tom Ferry 25:28
Right? I think for housing, it's going to be terrific that the, the interesting thing you like, I'm sure you read the article USA Today. So this would have been a couple of weeks ago to great regret. Right, which, you know, I took that higher pay, I left Microsoft for a higher paying job, making more money and fully remote. And now all of a sudden, I don't like the company I'm with, I moved out of the state. And they're now saying, You need to move back. So are we suddenly gonna get a bunch of new listings? Because everyone that bought in Boise, Jackson Hole, Wyoming, Colorado that now needs to go back to New York or San Francisco? It's going to be interesting. I don't have enough data points to argue how it's going to play out. But I bet you do.
Mike Simonsen 26:10
Yeah, well, I certainly have some opinions, I feel like it's a it is a long term trend, where and the we, you know, there's a hybrid and there's a fully remote, most jobs, most companies can't be fully remote. Now. So it is going to be a smaller number that are actually fully remote. And then most of them will be hybrid in some in some way. And that'll be terrific. And so what that means is that your commute goes from an hour commute is horrible, like it's just destroying. But now if you're in three days a week, if you're in Tuesday through Thursday, you can do two and a half hours zip in Monday night, you know, then and back out Friday morning, and then and all of a sudden, your your your radius around the city center grows dramatically. And so I think that has a significant impact on on, you know, like where people are interested in buying in the future. When those the real exurban ones were the ones that take the hardest, fastest in 2008. You know, people that have bought further out to, as they say in Atlanta drive till you can afford the payment. You know, you like you like it, those people are the ones that took the hardest hit. And then maybe you know that that's just from now on. Yeah,
Tom Ferry 27:28
I hope, I hope I hope I hope maybe it's just as a husband, as a dad as a friend that we as as we normalize that we don't forget self care, and taking care of our loved ones. And you and me like there was some advantages of like being home every night for dinner. You know, there was some tremendous advantages in that. And yet it's funny now my wife's like, you're going to the office, right?
Mike Simonsen 27:54
I have my office here, but I'm, I'm the one it's really for me. Yeah. That's great. Tom. Look, it's we're at the end of our time. Thank you so much for taking the time with us. Really appreciate your insights and your take on the market. So thank you so much, and we will talk to you again soon.
Tom Ferry 28:13
All right. Thanks. Appreciate it.
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